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What happened to nature?
Olena {The Wizard} Shmahalo (23)
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    Rousseau and Jell-o.
    There was some interesting discussion today about the presentation of the self, to the self — the reference "I" and the possible detrimental value of this action within our daily lives. Rousseau apparently thought that this method of representation was taught to us over time by theatre and that it's both ridiculous and unnatural for humans to go about being images as we are. To have a self and to do the things that this particular self does certainly does require one to become an image which can actually be limiting:
    "If she destined man to be healthy, I venture to declare that a state of reflection is a state contrary to nature, and that a thinking man is a depraved animal."

    — { Rousseau }

    It may be better to just do, as the animals just do, without too much reflection about whether that doing is in accordance with a particular image of one's self or not.
    I find that agreeable, but I'm unable to agree all the way. For instance, to declare our own behavior unnatural seems strange. People have been making representations for thousands of years even before "civilization", so is it really not of our nature to do so? And where does nature "end"? If she created us, and we create in turn, are our (re)creations not of nature? Is it naive to make the assertion we and our creations never cease to be nature, actually?
    In addition, especially at this time I don't think it's wise at all for the person to only do and not reflect; in fact it's a mark of unintelligence and can be dangerous if we, all at once, begin to only do. It would really require a "good" inert nature (as Rousseau suggests we have — but do we really embody that?).



    Pertinently, lately "my self" feels like just a "body" of jell-o being transfigured around through more jell-o so that it appears as it's particular formation in various points of space-time. Maybe it's because of a physics-based perspective — if you start imagining everything in atoms then your body is little more than a different formation of the things in the same air around you, and so what used to be "places" and "times" have become all the same, all one jell-o, under different guises as appropriate for our perception and comprehension. It's very strange. Actually it's kind of embarrassing to admit... but I wonder if anyone else feels like jell-o as well.

    Tue, Mar 30, 2010  Permanent link

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    PARADOX     Tue, Mar 30, 2010  Permanent link
    how about some tapioca pudding?
    i like the juxtaposition of philosophy,the box of jell-o,and the slogan at the bottom;
    seems to me like most if not all philosophers are bad at cooking (i'm just going by my sense of smell)…what they do is like trying to get the jell-o back in the box,
    and convince us we should eat it…i'd like to see them try!
    in my kitchen,i have but one recipe,and every time i try it i come up with something totally new and unexpected: en oida oti ouden oida
    Infinitas     Tue, Mar 30, 2010  Permanent link
    It may be better to just do, as the animals just do, without too much reflection about whether that doing is in accordance with a particular image of one's self or not.
    I find that agreeable, but I'm unable to agree all the way. For instance, to declare our own behavior unnatural seems strange. People have been making representations for thousands of years even before "civilization", so is it really not of our nature to do so?


    You should read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. His character, Ishmael, a caged Gorilla from the Congo, telepathically communicates with this man who is seeking for all the answers. He really goes into the whole evolution of man from animal, the difference between the two and what the consequences are. Lot's of interesting stuff...

    As far as I know and can tell, animals live in the present. Isn't that what we are always telling ourselves? I think that is our fault, our "fall."

    And where does nature "end"? If she created us, and we create in turn, are our (re)creations not of nature? Is it naive to make the assertion we and our creations never cease to be nature, actually?


    Someone on SpaceCollective had once said that humans are the Universe's way of perceiving itself. I think in creating artificial, conscious life, we will learn more about ourselves than we ever did before. We will be able to perceive ourselves for the first time being outside of the Human Mind. Also, how can we prove that our Universe wasn't created by a far intelligent race of beings in another dimension? That would really turn Nature upside-down!

    Maybe it's because of a physics-based perspective — if you start imagining everything in atoms then your body is little more than a different formation of the things in the same air around you, and so what used to be "places" and "times" have become all the same, all one jell-o, under different guises as appropriate for our perception and comprehension.

    Isn't it awesome! :)
    Olena     Tue, Mar 30, 2010  Permanent link
    Haha tapioca... actually, no. That's not really what I'm going for because in tapioca there is differentiation between the little tapioca balls and the pudding itself. Jell-o (unless fruit-filled or something) is Jell-o all the way though.
    Turtles all the way down! :D


    Infinitas —
    Thanks, I will check out that book sometime.
    Actually as far as animals living in the present, my professor gave an excellent example:

    "Raccoons don't put on plays or sit around in the forest watching movies about themselves."


    What you said about the Universe's perception reminds me of a Carl Sagan quote:
    "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself"


    And it IS awesome! It's SO amazing! Unfortunately it's still a little much for everyday conversation — the sort of thing that gets strange looks.
    meganmay     Tue, Mar 30, 2010  Permanent link
    I think in creating artificial, conscious life, we will learn more about ourselves than we ever did before.
    — Infinitas

    I think our ability to reflect is a unique characteristic that motivates us to re-create the world in our image. I also think different moments in human history demand more or less reflection and more or less "just doing." At the moment I feel like we're in a "reflecting" period approaching a "just doing" period, but I'm not 100% sure yet. It seems like Space Collective is quite the destination for reflection, there's always the question as as to whether this portal will inspire action, but no matter what it's good to have a stronghold for reflection.

    The reason I started writing this comment, however, is because I read recently that Plato banished artists from his Republic because they made nothing but images and these imitations of the gods threatened the integrity of the Republic....It'd be interesting to take a philosophy class that puts these texts in the perspective of today and filters out bias' that no longer carry as much weight.

    PARADOX     Tue, Mar 30, 2010  Permanent link
    turtles?
    Olena     Tue, Mar 30, 2010  Permanent link
    Megan —
    Yes, I think both are necessary. Actually I just finished a book called "De Bono's Thinking Course" which details, basically, how to think. That just isn't taught, and it should be. He considers thinking a tool, and places emphasis on the knowledge "how to do" which he likes to call "operacy".
    Anyway it was really helpful, I'm excited about it! Wish I had read it earlier.

    Also I'm currently taking a class called "Theories of Imitation" wherein we actually do talk about the theories of how humans have made images, how prominent mimesis actually is in our daily lives. It's amazing!
    Speaking of Plato, I was just looking into the Buddhist dogma of emptiness and I found this page:

    http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/emptiness.html

    They do briefly mention Plato and how Buddhism contradicts his ideas that all things have an "essential form" // that our images are thrice removed from God's...
    and it reminded me of this post. I think that what I wrote about jell-o is so much like what they say about emptiness: a non-essentiality that only becomes specific form depending on it's context.
    It's easy see how this particular belief system always gets tied in with New Age philosophies about physics.

    And amazing how none of those thoughts were related at first... the cyclicality is really something.
    De Bono mentioned in his book that on a sphere one is always simultaneously coming and going. It feels exactly like that.


    Paradox —
    The most widely known version appears in Stephen Hawking's 1988 book A Brief History of Time, which starts:
    A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"
    PARADOX     Wed, Mar 31, 2010  Permanent link
    sounds like the traditional Onondaga story about Great Turtle Island,
    maybe the old woman was Iroquois…

    perhaps Rousseau was trying to say "wei wu wei"…

    "It is only with total humility, and in absolute stillness of mind that we can know what indeed we are."
    -Terence Gray(Wei Wu Wei)
     
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