Member 1535
22 entries

(M, 29)
Immortal since Jan 24, 2008
Uplinks: 0, Generation 3
Interests: nanotech, religion, philosophy, language, morality, self-deceit, instinct, bigotry, dancing, loving, hating & chemistry. I'm not particularly well suited to small talk.
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    To begin; I actually believe I can shape my own future, as a person, an individual.

    To challenge that; (As far as I know) everything inside of me is made of atoms. Atoms are made of quarks and leptons blah blah blah. Atoms behave in a very particular and predictable manner, (aside from radiation) - even though some of the intricacies of matter interaction are (at this point) unknown. Atoms build molecules and complexes; which in term build cells and life (the universe) as we know it. So if we fathom the fact that a single cell is more complicated than a 747 and that the human body contains some 10-100 trillion cells, we are still facing the predictable (yet insane) computable behavior of all those atoms...

    In effect; life, (the universe) is just an ongoing chemical reaction.

    Here's my proposition: A computer is made that maps every particle, every tiny bit of energy (in the entire universe+/beyond) at a single point of time. The computer then uses the complete laws of particle interaction (still unknown to us perhaps, but this is theoretical) to predict how everything will react for say, the rest of time?

    Would it not then be said that if the universe was considered this computer, that everything had a predictable outcome? That at time x particle y would be at x,y,z? Effectively saying that there is one linear time line for the entire universe?

    -I understand that this would be physically impossible, it takes a super computer to compute Schroedinger's equation for hydrogen. Helium cannot even be calculated.
    -Radiation is currently believed to be a random event. It still remains to be seen whether or not this is fundamentally true or not, this could have a butterflies and hurricanes effect (with time as opposed to oceans) vs just being another factor to the previously mentioned laws of particle interaction.

    Finally; I can't think of a way to actually prove this theorem, or a single use of the knowledge of whether or not it was true...

    What I would like is an indication of whether I've missed something?, how feasible it is?, how many people have been on the same train of thought? and your own thoughts/contributions...

    Fri, Mar 28, 2008  Permanent link
    Categories: philosophy, Fate, Chemistry
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    Synapses (1)

    Schmuck     Tue, May 18, 2010  Permanent link
    This is an interesting point, the idea that if we knew what was ahead we could then change it.
    It raises a number of paradoxes, however.

    Firstly, if we assumed this computer did exist, would it not be immediately be wrong? As soon as anyone knew their future they would have already changed it by knowing about it. In that respect, the computer could never be right. The computer itself is part of what it is considering, and it would directly influence its own and everything else's fate. If the computer was somehow exempt from the Universe, and nothing could ever be affected by its information, then it would be right, but it confuses me to think how it could map a consistent and accurate fate when it itself is part of it.

    However, another paradox from this would be that if the Universe is a grand ongoing chemical reaction like I mention in my article, then that computer was always going to be made, and all the corresponding actions and changes as a result of people perceiving the results of it were always going to happen, so while you would feel like you were changing your fate, that's what you were always going to do, so in effect the computer could never have a single fate which it could determine, since the computer itself would be tied up in the already predetermined fate of the Universe.

    And so, if that turned out to be the case, it couldn't prove anything, since only two outcomes could be drawn:

    Either the Universe having a logical fate has been disproved by this computer due to the fact that the computer has altered fate.

    Or, the computer is wrong, since if the Universe does have a logical fate, by definition the computer cannot be correct because it is caught up in this fate, meaning whatever it does, it cannot predict the future because by doing so, it instantly changes it, giving the computer an infinitely insolvable problem.

    Both would have the outcome of the future being different than what the computer predicted, meaning that neither of the above conclusions could be proved or disproved.

    So yes, maybe it could change fate, or maybe it couldn't, but either way, there would be no way of determining which had happened.
    Infinitas     Thu, May 27, 2010  Permanent link
    As of now (I intend to read more on the physics of free will and fate) I "believe" in fate, but I don't particularly like the idea that I'm not in control of my life. The main reason why I do is because of synchronicity. These "meaningful coincidences" are like flags that pop up along a person's timeline that mysteriously say "keep digging deeper," "follow this path." They seem to lead towards something, but the problem is that we can fit models to (potentially deliberately) ambiguous information. So is synchronicity just a false manifestation within our minds, a random event that means nothing, or is there something more to it?

    I know I, and many others here on SC, have said that we should live in the present...go with the flow. I think all organisms, except humans, always live on instinct, live in accordance with the flow, in the present. That flow, which seems to be "the way" to live, is like a timeline of predeterminism. If we don't live with the flow, we are against it, trying to *control* more than we should be. This control is free will, while going with the flow is fate. These synchronicities seem to pull you back into the flow... It's all very intriguing and slightly askewed...
    Schmuck     Sat, May 29, 2010  Permanent link
    Maybe free will and fate aren't so at odds with each other, I mean we like to think of ourselves as separate entities, capable of manipulation of the universe around us, but the truth is, everything is as much of the universe as we are.
    In that respect, if you're going to believe in a fate, or an order of things, then you need to rethink what free will is. Free will would not be a means to change things, rather a manifestation of your association with the Universe. Free will would be a force of the Universe: you almost have to abandon the idea of individuality and think of yourself as a cog in a huge machine, with everything working in synchrony towards this common "fate".