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Interests: nanotech, religion, philosophy, language, morality, self-deceit, instinct, bigotry, dancing, loving, hating & chemistry. I'm not particularly well suited to small talk.
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    A letter to a Minister
    At my school chapel; where I am forced to visit periodically, The Reverend recently gave a fairly blunt attack on Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion'. While I haven't read his book, I had a fair few problems with some of the things with what our minister was saying. At the end of his speech he invited anyone with their own arguments to get back to him.

    This is my response:

    Firstly, Atheism is not a religion. There is no dogma or ritual which is essential or fundamental to being an atheist. It simply means not believing in God. And there’s no reason to say why an atheist can’t have religious thoughts or feelings, separate to the idea of God. In your speech you basically attacked anti-religious atheists, as opposed to people who cannot or do not see the ‘Light of God’. Buddhists are fundamentally atheists – and you’re forgetting that for the most part, Atheists follow a fairly Christian doctorate of ethics. It has been woven into the fabric of our society over the last couple of thousand years.

    You did a good job of explaining the need for religion; In today’s sick, sad, depressed, uncertain, changing & impossible world it is good for the masses to have a sense of hope. It helps people come to grips with their situation and persevere to an ‘after-life’ if their current life is not what they think it should be. This; and the lack of scientific institutions, would do more than enough to help convert the masses of Africa, with their poor living conditions, mass hunger and terrible life expectancy. The church does a great job in supporting them and their plight. This does not however, prove the existence of a God.

    Religion is very important, because as human beings we have an emotional side – a spiritual side, which you would exercise whenever you pray, or participate in ritual. This almost euphoric feeling, again is not proof of God, but instead proof that as human beings we exist as more than just logisticians – we do have a right and left side of the brain. I personally think that most Atheists do not fully understand, respect or acknowledge this facet of their existence, and this is a great shame. Harnessing the emotional power of an individual can lead to great personal gratification and understanding of things internal and external to themselves.

    You may ask then, why don’t I like Christianity when I’ve laid out all these advantages of it? Because God doesn’t work for me. The idea that someone external to me and the people around me controls the future and my existence makes no sense. Nobody; not JC or your God himself has the power to better the world around me, other than myself and every other individual. Christianity does a great job of looking after the sick and the poor and the homeless. It also does a great job of suppressing free thought and rationalism, of controlling the masses in such a way that they act to deny all of their most basic human impulses; namely your seven sins. It turns the masses into sheep; by controlling their thoughts and feelings to the point where they act down aspirations of grandeur and ambition in general. To the point where they are scared of a place; Hell, which we only know of by people who are yet to travel there. So how on earth do we know what it is like?

    Surely everybody is going to hell? If you are not a Christian, you are going to hell. If you are not a Muslim, you are going to hell. If you are not Jewish, you will go to hell. Etc etc. And so you will find all of your friends in hell. Or are other religions not as valid as Christianity? Why couldn’t we be terrible people our entire lives and repent on our deathbeds, be forgiven our earthly sins and still make it up to heaven? I support the idea of religion. But basing it in lies creates more internal conflict than harmony. Somebody created Christianity, and created the God so many people worship. Why not create your own? Surely that would be more appropriate to you?

    You cannot justify or smash a cause by the people who support it or oppose it. There will always be people you would rather were on the other side of the line. Did you really expect to sway atheists by saying that people with doctorates believe in God? That scientists believe in God? Or that Stalin was an Atheist? As I said before, Atheism is NOT a religion. And Christianity does a great job of helping people through their beliefs, providing hope etc – and I’m not against that. I just think it’s folly to actually believe, in your heart, that God is real. Or to tell people who don’t believe in God that they’re wrong just because so many people do.

    You also said that questioning the existence of God was the most important question that could be asked. Allow me to rebut. Will either answer actually affect the world? You would be better just to accept it on faith – evangelists who find the need to try and justify Christianity with modern science have obviously missed this point. I think you were alluding to this: (which I’ve copied from an article on wikipedia called “presupposition”)


    In epistemology, presuppositions relate to a belief system, or Weltanschauung, and are required for it to make sense. A variety of Christian apologetics, called presuppositional apologetics, argues that the existence or non-existence of God is the basic presupposition of all human thought, and that all men arrive at a worldview which is ultimately determined by the theology they presuppose. Evidence and arguments are only marshaled after the fact in an attempt to justify the theological assumptions already made. According to this view, it is impossible to demonstrate the existence of God unless one presupposes that God exists; modern science is incapable of discovering the supernatural because it relies on methodological naturalism and thereby fashions a Procrustean bed which rejects any observation which would disprove the naturalistic assumption. The best the apologist can do is to argue that the resulting worldview is somehow inconsistent with itself (for example, via Argument from morality or via Transcendental argument for the existence of God).



    As Nietzsche said; “God is Dead”, which as I see it encompasses the idea that if God is so great, and all powerful knowing and helpful etc then why haven’t we seen any miracles recently? Why doesn’t he visit some great geneticist and tell them the cure to cancer? Why bother questioning the existence of such a god that just watches – when we could spend our time trying to cure cancer ourselves?

    I have answers for this rhetoric – and no doubt you can ascertain the points I’m trying to make. If we go past this question of the existence of God, I ask another question; what are the grounds for then basing a religion on it? On worship?


    (While I understand that you weren't there, it has been nearly a week and I haven't copped a response back - I would like to know what's next from him, and what arguments are still relevant in this field)

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    Comments:


    vis     Mon, Jun 2, 2008  Permanent link
    I have yet to see any positive results to come out of the "concept/theory" of religion. Giving people some belief that there is something better awaiting us just above the clouds seems, to me, a pointless endeavor. Especially when most ministers wear expensive watches, drive expensive cars, live the high life and for the most part are over weight due to their excessive gluttony.

    Mankind is better served by science than religion, and to most, that is apparently obvious. Science has eradicated polio, small pox and many other diseases that afflicted so many in past centuries. No matter how much one prayed over their loved one during small pox epidemics or polio outbreaks, their loved one still was afflicted with the diseases. Nothing changed.

    The concept of a god is based on superstitions passed on to generation after generation by priests, witch doctors and soothsayers. It isn't based on logic or any form of provable fact. The concept of god comes out of man's early inability to understand his place in the cosmos.

    Before the invention of the electric light and its spread through out the world the night sky was a good indicator of how insignificant the human species really is. Early man was frightened by what he saw and so the process of creating "gods" began. Something "bigger" had to have their hand in what they saw. They believed that something or someone was watching over them. They began by making sacrifices to their gods urged on my those men who had claimed they were in touch with the gods. Of course there was a direct correlation between what was sacrificed and the upward mobility of the priests, witchdoctors and soothsayers in the communities they presided over. Bring something to be sacrificed to the gods, plus a little taste for the priest, evolved in to "tithing" as religion (superstition) became more and more powerful. All religion is based on money, "tithe to god" meaning his self appointed representative on earth, got you blessings, supposedly. A good question to ask your minister is, if he didn't make any money at what he does, would he still do it? I highly doubt it.

    Marx was correct in writing "religion is the opiate of the masses" although I'm sure if Marx were alive today there would be an amendment to that quote. Religion, religious television and television in general is the opiate of the people.

    That is painfully obvious when you see how numb people are to what is happening in the world as they sit happily in front of their TV sets either absorbing some nonsense broadcast about god or who the next american idol is going to be. Television has become the religion of the masses in all its permutations.

    "We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. " Richard Dawkins
    dragon     Tue, Jun 3, 2008  Permanent link
    Thanks for responding;

    You make very valid points, but my question is; are these things necessarily bad for everyone? I agree with you that prayer is objectively pointless and a waste of time, that people plugged into their televisions are wasting their lives from a common perspective. But why should we care? I suppose on a utilitarian basis they are wasting our resources, wasting our air, our petrol, but then who are we to judge that their lifestyle is objectively less valid then our own?

    Not everyone is ready to leave the Matrix. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. It's easy for us; from our armchairs, to imagine everyone as considerate, responsible, thoughtful, intelligent & altruistic once all the pipe dreams have faded - but the chances of that actually happening I think are next to zero. So while the principles of (most) religions may in essence be false, if everyone knows in their hearts that they are going to die, there is no saviour & we're just animals - some people won't be able to cope.

    From there you can enter the debate of "well... do they deserve to survive if they can't cope with the world? or is religion/couch potato a valid haven for the 'weak'?"

    So many people who attack Christianity look at science as the answer. Science rarely factors human emotion into things - unless looking at it directly. Spirituality addresses emotion and that more intangible side to our existence, so I think both are just as important in the survival of our species. Unless we want to end up living like they do in the film Equilibrium, and if you've seen it I think the title itself is alluding to the equilibrium between spirituality, emotion and on the other hand science.
    ZoeWiseman     Mon, Jun 16, 2008  Permanent link
    From my stand point - Religion IS bad for everyone. Just take a good look at this stupid war and the lives literally stopped DEAD in their tracks leaving countless depressing and war like thoughts to their loved ones that will sooner or later be acted upon.

    Personally I cannot condone ANY religion that breeds such anti-human sentiment. For all the good religion supposedly does for people, there are millions of bad things it does to counteract those good things. And if a person needs religion in order to accomplish something good for their neighbor or a stranger, they aren't a moral individual to begin with.

    Morally I cannot accept any religion with so much blood on its hands. I don't want that guilt, I don't want that karma. I'm happy not ever contributing to death and destruction. I can sleep at night because of this.

    I also feel that fairy tales and, if I can borrow a Vonnegut term, FOMA are harmful to living a balanced life. A SANE life.

    What would the world be like if no one had ever heard of religion or made up gods and goddesses? I wonder. Would we kill someone in a far off land just because they believed in something different from us? What is belief anyway? I would like to just believe in humanity and cancel out all the god stuff. Maybe we would make less bombs and concentrate on life instead. So much for the Christian pro-life stance, huh? —-

    Religion and belief in God kills - literally. Here's proof!

    WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.

    Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.

    "She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.

    Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

    The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.

    They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

    The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

    Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.

    The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."


    The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.

    Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.

    The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.

    The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

    "They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

    The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.

    The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
    dragon     Thu, Jun 19, 2008  Permanent link
    Ok. But consider this - without religion (or at least the morality it has intertwined with the western world) what would these masses have to keep them from going crazy at all of the information? What's to stop them being more violent (as we are animals and it wouldn't take long for that consensus to prove it's name). There is that inbuilt human idea to believe in things and to obey — how long would it take for people to realise they could use this to contain the masses in the more general sense by getting inside of their head...

    I mean if people are stupid enough to get completely sucked in then they should be prepared to face the consequences of their actions. Some people may choose to say 'if only stupidity was painful' or 'if only they removed warning labels from everything because if you were stupid enough not to realise what you were doing was dangerous it would remind you to use common sense'...

    But then that's not a very positive outlook on life — stupid people are needed to make everyone else feel better about themselves and without things like religion they could become a serious threat to us all.
    ZoeWiseman     Sat, Jun 21, 2008  Permanent link
    We are animals - animals invented religion - who's to say that our laws are correct?

    Religion is immoral. It cancels out 1/2 of the human race, women. It was written by men to gain power. Act this way or the all powerful god will come down and curse you, Wizardry.

    Religion wants people to become completely sucked in - that's it's purpose! CONTROL. If there was a "satan" or the equivalent - I'm sure he would be the one to blame for this silly thing we call religion. It has his name written all over it.

    There are plenty of books that teach morality better than any religion could.


    dragon     Sat, Jun 21, 2008  Permanent link
    Control. Yes. My reason for defending religion at this juncture stems from control. As much as everyone loves the idea of rules not applying to themselves, they love the idea of those rules applying to other people. I think that a lot of people need to be controlled. Or rather, allowed to obey. It isn't for people that can rule themselves, we will pry ourselves from the woodwork regardless.

    At the risk of sounding like a sexist — you say men created religion, God, etc. Why didn't the women? How did it happen that men rose to power above women, their equals? Religion was not invented before women. Is it possible that as animals men were simply superior?

    As for morality. That's just a bit of a joke. You cannot logically bash a religion these days unless you a humbly aware that your own morality has been heavily influenced by the whims of such religions and a society that was built on them. We live in a herd society, it is more important to take care of others and the society we live in than ourselves.

    As for satan. Yes. Satan was responsible for Christianity. Satan however represents the beast inside all of us. The creators of Christianity; used the wills of this beast, used their desire for power to build a means of controlling others. It has served since then as a tool to control that beast which lives inside by labeling it as sin.

    It is good to live in harmony with your beast. But in today's world not everyone could cope and it would promote anarchy for everyone to live in such a way. While we may hate and criticize Christianity to our heart's content, and free those we deem as appropriate for saving — unless we kill them all off these people with morals and their Gods will for the most part keep to themselves, become conservatives and think to themselves that they are fulfilling a worthwhile existence. What is so terribly wrong about that?
    ZoeWiseman     Sat, Jun 21, 2008  Permanent link
    Well - that was quite risky and didn't sit well with me at all. Religion couldn't have been invented before women because we came first. We didn't miraculously arrive out of Adam's rib. Adam arrived from our womb. Not that I believe there was an Adam to begin with, because I don't.

    Men were scared of the power women had being able to give life, so they had to take it away and put that power in some figment of our imaginations. Men may be physically stronger, but superior? No. Superior one's don't make war. Women don't make war. Men do. Strong humans give life, weak humans take it away. Some of the weak one's have even made war over women. In this day and age in America at least, it's ridiculous to say things like men are superior - it's the equivalent of saying the white race is superior to the black race. Totally unacceptable.

    This will be my last comment - it seems religion has controlled your brain enough to assume that men are superior.

    Disgusted.
    dragon     Sat, Jun 21, 2008  Permanent link
    You misinterpreted the question marks lol. The intended argument was not that men are superior (I couldn't care less either way) - simply that men have thought they were superior even before religion. Religion did not create this point of view. You could interpret the last few thousand years as an attempt to justify that prejudice...
    ZoeWiseman     Sun, Jun 22, 2008  Permanent link
    Before today's traditional religions - Women were decision makers, goddesses, held jobs, ran the courts and supervised men and women. It wasn't until today's traditional religions that women became less equal. Men needed to take those powers away because they weren't benefitting from it. The only way to do it was to create a fictional god who wouldn't tolerate devotion to feminine deities. And how better to do this than to blame everything on Eve? LIllith was much cooler.

    You are the one who brought up superiority.

    Any woman toting the conservative religious values line is a subservient wench for her husband. Nothing more, nothing less. And these values will only be passed down to the children who will in turn act the same way. That isn't healthy.
     
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